Small Space Gardening ft. Kevin from Epic Gardening

Announcer: Welcome to the Backyard Bounty podcast, from heritageacresmarket.com, where we talk about all things backyard poultry, beekeeping, gardening, sustainable living and more. And now here's your host Nicole.

Nicole: Good morning everybody and thank you for joining us for another episode of Backyard Bounty. I'm your host Nicole, and today we are talking to Kevin with Epic Gardening to learn more about small space gardening and how we can incorporate that into our overall dreams and goals. Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kevin: Yeah, no problem. Thanks so much for having me.

Nicole: So I found you on Instagram. You have an amazing channel there and you're always posting great videos, and content, and articles, and you really have content kind of everywhere. And I'm amazed at how much you cover and, from houseplants to gardening and everything else, but can you tell us a little bit more about Epic Gardening, and your goal, and just kind of what you have going on overall with that?

Kevin: Yeah, of course. So Epic Gardening, the mission is basically to teach 10 million or more people how to grow their own food. And then as time went on it expanded to growing their own plants, because I realized some people, their path into growing plants in general is going to be more ornamental in nature, so house plants or just ornamental gardening. So yeah, the mission is to teach 10 million people how to grow plants. And my personal little pet project is of course growing your own food.

Nicole: So the food is kind of what appeals to you the most?

Kevin: Yeah, I mean for me that's where I started and that's what really draws me. If there's a result at the end of growing the plant, that hooks me, right? I want to know how to get a nice ear of corn, or how to get a perfect tomato rather than, I mean it's still interesting, but to me just keeping an ornamental houseplant alive is less hooking for me than of course enjoying the fruits of your harvest.

Nicole: Sure. I agree with you. And I noticed you just recently picked up your Oxalis and that's dual purpose.

Kevin: Exactly. Yeah. Which most people don't know because you know, they treat it as a house plant. I think what's interesting about people who only grow house plants is it's like they have amnesia about the fact that no plant is actually an indoor plant. Like all of these plants evolved and are endemic to different regions of the world outdoors where they were first evolved. So to me it's always interesting that people don't know some of these things and it's fun to bring that type of knowledge where you're eating a house plant on the camera.

Nicole: Sure. It's kind of something that most people I'm sure aren't really used to. And like you said, it's not really your typical train of thought.

Kevin: No, definitely not, right? And it's interesting just to, it's a striking thing and to have such a beautiful plant that you can actually use as a garnish in salads, or you can dig up the corms and eat those, and just lots of different ways that you can use a plant besides just looking at it.

Nicole: Absolutely. So with small space gardening, can you kind of give us an idea of where you're located so that if some of this gardening information is kind of more directed towards your area, people know where we're coming from?

Kevin: Yeah, sure. So I'm in San Diego, California, which is zone 10 B. So it's a pretty temperate climate over here, but a lot of the methods that I'm using would be applicable to anyone in a small space. So we're talking raised beds, standing raised beds, self-watering systems, five gallon buckets, grow bags, hydroponic methods, or growing edibles indoors. I kind of talk about a lot of those because the growing space I have is a front yard, south facing garden, which is actually really fortunate to have in an urban environment. I'm maybe a mile or so from downtown San Diego by just walking, so it's like 20 minutes to downtown San Diego. But it's really nice to have that space. That being said, it's definitely not a backyard bounty. It's never, it's not massive, you know? So I have to figure out what I can do to cram as much as I can into as small a space as possible while still actually getting good growing results.

Nicole: Sure. And so what is the overall size of your garden area?

Kevin: Yeah, so the front yard is probably 20 by 40 feet at the most, and I don't have the exact measurements but it's somewhere around there, and there are one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight... 11 raised beds in the front yard. So 11 raised beds, and each of those raised beds is maybe about 12 square feet of growing space. So it's maybe 120, 130 square feet of actual growing space in the front yard. And then in the side yard, I've got a couple stand up raised beds. I've got a system called the Vegepod, which is like a covered standing raised bed. And then I've got one called the EcoGarden, which is this massive four by six foot, standup, self-watering raised bed, which has been really nice because if I'm traveling or if I'm just wanting to have a bit more of a low maintenance, plug and play type of garden then the self-watering stuff works really well.

Kevin: But that's pretty much what I'm working with. I've also got a garden shed where I'm almost always running some kind of hydroponic or indoor grow tent experience where I don't have to even have the right season to grow something right. Because then I'm growing under grow lights and I can keep testing new varieties, or I can test new plant training techniques, whatever the case may be, by just manufacturing my entire environment, so I can grow in soil in there or I can grow in hydroponics and... I'm going to start peppers pretty soon, but it's not a big deal that it's going into winter because in the grow tent it's going to be summer.

Nicole: Sure. So just because somebody doesn't have a huge plot of land, like we have two acres, so we can do a lot with, you can still definitely utilize a small space and be able to be relatively sustainable with that.

Kevin: Yeah, I mean that's the goal. And I think for me the realization that most people are in my situation rather than in a two acre, or one acre plus situation, makes me go as deep as I can into the creativity of gardening in this type of environment because, especially in my age range, early thirties, late twenties, almost no one's sitting on an acre. So we're all trying to figure out, how do I grow something? And I think that's why you see that turn towards house plants for the young apartment dwellers is because in their mind that's the only thing that they can grow, which I'd like to at least suggest some edible alternatives to get your mind going on the possibilities of growing some of your own food.

Nicole: Sure. So what are some of your suggestions?

Kevin: Yeah. If you're talking in apartment or a condo or something like that, then you're really limited to your best window sills, right? So if you have a south facing window sill that's like your golden option, or of course if you have some sort of balcony, or patio, or back deck, or whatever the case may be, then your options can get a lot better. I mean, you can throw grow bags, or a standing raised bed, or even a raised bed if you have like a back patio. As long as the light's good, there's a lot that you can do in that space and I think a lot of people look at it and just say, "Oh, I can't do anything.", and, "I might as well just have a couple of house plants or just not even do it all together."

Kevin: But you know, patio herbs, fantastic choice. Any kind of leafy green is going to be good for a lot of apartment dwellers because you're dealing with weird shade issues, and even if you're south facing, maybe there's a big skyscraper next to you and you can't grow. And you know, if you grow something that doesn't need that much light, it doesn't need that much care, then you can still get a nice little salad, and sure it's not a bountiful harvest of food that's going to feed your whole family, right? But it's as much as you can do in the space that you have, which I think is important.

Nicole: Yeah, I mean it's a great place to start somewhere at least.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And then you know, you start to have the fantasies of when you do have a suburban backyard, or when you do have maybe a more rural homestead style situation, or maybe you do get a community garden plot and a lot of different ways to approach it, but as long as that seed is planted in your head of, oh, this is actually kind of fun. I understand where my food starting to come from, I'm getting the joy of harvesting even just a couple of bits of basil to throw on my salad, then it just really starts to go and I find that it hooks people, you know?

Nicole: I know I always have some herbs in my window sill in the winter just because there's nothing like making spaghetti sauce with the fresh rosemary and the fresh basil that you pull right from your own kitchen window sill. It's great.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and even in winter, like you're saying, even if you are a big time gardener, of course you still can't do a whole lot in winter in many areas of the world, but you can extend your harvest as much as possible and like you're saying, you can pull some fresh basil and then you get a little hint of what summer used to be like for you, you know?

Nicole: Yeah.

Kevin: And then it kind of warms your heart.

Nicole: Yeah, absolutely. Especially here where we have snow and cold winters, unlike you.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, is there anything that you're doing to extend your season, or do you kind of wind it down for the winter every year?

Nicole: We mostly wind it down. We do have some LED grow lights. One of the great things about Colorado is after they legalized marijuana, there was all these grow stores that popped up, but that made it so much more accessible for, and affordable, for things like grow lights and stuff to be able to start growing inside. So that was something that we hadn't done until really recently. So a lot of just small planters, mostly herbs and things, that I'll put under my LED lights for the winter, like I said, the basil and the rosemary and things like that. And then early February, late January-ish, I'll start all of my seeds inside.

Kevin: There you go. Yeah, I mean I think even just growing under lights, or starting your seeds under lights, is a good way to kick start the season. Then you get your stuff in the ground as soon as the ground's workable and then you're good to go, and you kind of jumpstart the whole season by sometimes you know, a month or more depending on your region.

Nicole: Right. And then you can find the seeds that you want and then grow the variety that you want instead of just going down to your local hardware store in the garden section and picking whatever tomato they have and just hoping for the best.

Kevin: Yeah, exactly. Then you don't, and I don't think there's really anything wrong with going to the nursery and grabbing starts-

Nicole: Oh, no.

Kevin: ... because I think for a lot of people that's, it's skipping a lot of the harder parts of starting seeds and gardening, right? But like you're saying, you are going to be limited to what they decided to stock. And so if you're like me and you want to grow some weird stuff-

Nicole: Yeah.

Kevin: ... like I always try to grow some random heirloom tomato and some Asian greens, and they're just not going to be at even niche nurseries, or even massive nurseries. They're just not going to be there. So I have to start the seeds and yeah, I mean going under lights in winter gives you a little taste of what's to come at the very least. And then of course you could still grow your herbs and your greens literally under lights in winter and just get a harvest.

Nicole: Yeah. I tried loofah this year. That was my...

Kevin: Oh, nice.

Nicole: That was my fun one. My-

Kevin: Did that work out for you?

Nicole: It did. I have four of them.

Kevin: Wow.

Nicole: My heirloom tomatoes didn't make it.

Kevin: So I had a bunch of tomatoes, but I did this thing on Instagram, it was called the loofah challenge, of trying to get as many people around the world to grow loofah and then have a competition for who grew the longest or the biggest one. And I was just talking so much trash, I was like, "Oh, I'm going to destroy everyone. I'm going to have the most epic loofah." And lo and behold, that's one of the plants, one of the few plants in my garden this year that just didn't take, I'm looking at it right now. It's kind of going over my arch and... It just didn't get big enough in its vegetative growth before the summer started to close out that it had the ability to support a fruit, you know?

Nicole: Oh, that's a bummer.

Kevin: And so yeah, I'm just keeping it there like hoping some magical spell will be cast upon it and I'll have one, but I know it's not going to happen so...

Nicole: Well, I like the optimism at least.

Kevin: Yeah, yeah.

Nicole: So if somebody wanted to get into small space gardening, you mentioned at the beginning there was a bunch of different options, what's the best way to decide which one would be best for an individual situation?

Kevin: So the way I about it, and it's kind of what I wrote about in my book, which is called A Field Guide to Urban Gardening, is the first thing to solve is where you're living. So where you're living and your absolute constraints of your space is what's going to determine the best method that's available to you, right? So if you go up in scale, so let's say you're a very small apartment with not a lot of light at all, then your best bet is probably growing under lights, maybe a hydroponic system, or maybe a balcony of some kind. But even some, some people are living in apartments that have a north-facing balcony. It's shaded out the whole day. It's like, light is the number one recipe for plant growth. So if you don't have the light equation solved, then you need to supplement with light, so then you're looking at, okay, well I guess I have to grow under lights.

Kevin: So that would be the most extreme case of I don't have enough space, right? And then as you move up, let's say you go into a townhouse or something with a little back patio, then you can get into container gardening. You maybe have a small raised bed, or vertical gardening starts to be a really good option there because you're constrained on space, but you can still grow up in the corner of a fence or something like that. Then as you get in towards more your style where you have a suburban backyard or perhaps even larger than that, well then pretty much the sky's the limit. So for me it's about what methods are even possible in my space. And so then you select from those methods and say, "Okay, well it looks like container gardening on a patio is my best bet." So, with that being said, what do I then decide to grow? And that kind of becomes the next question.

Nicole: And is there any tips that you have for helping people decide what to grow?

Kevin: Yeah, I think for me, I'm so, it's kind of a do as I say, not as I do, because I know when I first started I didn't follow the advice I'm about to give. So I will say if you're listening and you feel ambitious, just go for it and see what happens. I decided to grow cucumbers in a DIY hydroponic system under lights as the first thing I ever gardened, which was, let's just say a little aggressive, a little extreme. But you know, I learned something. They didn't turn out that well. I got them to, of course, flower and fruit, but they didn't taste that good because the nutrients weren't balanced and all this stuff. But I got hooked because I almost made it. I almost had success, right? And so I was like, ooh, what else can I do?

Nicole: Sure.

Kevin: So I would say if that's more your personality, pick something that you really love to eat, or something that you've always wanted to grow, and just give it a shot. That being said, if you want kind of a guaranteed progression, what I like to recommend is pick your favorite herb or leafy green and go with that first, because herbs and leafy greens are really hard to mess up because you're not growing them through their full life cycle. You know, a cucumber, you're going to plant the seed, you're going to let it sprawl out, you're going to let the flowers form, you might have to hand pollinate, and then they'll set fruit, and then you have to pick it and harvest it, right?

Kevin: And that's a very long lifespan. You're bringing that plant all the way through it's life cycle, whereas a lettuce or a basil, you're taking the leaves off as they grow and you're not even allowing them to go to a flower, or go to seed, which most people don't even think of those plants as something that would, because you're never eating that part of the plant. And so it's a lot easier to grow, way less requirements as far as light goes, and it's just overall a smoother experience. And then, like you're saying, you pull that basil out and you make it a spaghetti sauce or a pesto or whatever the case may be, then you taste what you grew, right? And so then you have that really beautiful experience of actually growing something that you eat.

Kevin: And from there I find people really start to get hooked, and then their mind starts to say, "Okay, well that wasn't so bad. Maybe I don't have a black thumb after all. What else can I actually grow?" And from there then the ball really starts to roll.

Nicole: So in your garden, which methods have you decided that were your favorite? I know that you said you had a couple different, the Vegepod, and the EcoGarden, and some standing and raised beds, which ones do you prefer?

Kevin: Yeah, for me, because I've got this urban front yard and the soil was just not amazing, and I would prefer to work a little bit higher up because I'm six foot four, it's nice to not have to bend all the way down is, I love just a classic taller raised bed. So I've got, almost all the raised beds in my front yard are about 15 inches tall if not a little bit taller. And if it was up to me and I could snap my fingers, I would go maybe 30 inches tall.

Kevin: And that's just the method that works for me. I mean raised beds are great because you get to perfectly customize your soil. You don't have to start with your native soil and spend that time remediating the soil, so it's quicker to get to results. It can of course be a little more expensive because you have to build the raised beds and fill them with soil, but I think for a lot of people, at least in small spaces, that's kind of one of your best options is just grow in a raised bed. Not only that, I mean it's, there's certain urban environments where you really don't want to be growing in the native soil that's on the lot, because maybe that lot used to be a gas station, or there's heavy metals in it, or whatever the case may be. I find it's really easy to just go straight up raised beds, put your soil in, plant in, and learn all the different techniques through that method, which is just so handy.

Nicole: And what do you do for irrigation? Do you hand water or have an automatic system set up?

Kevin: Yeah, I used to hand water, which I find, I mean I have nothing against it. It's actually a really nice way to go out in the morning and spend some time in the garden. And I find if your hand watering, you actually are observing a little bit more and you can spot things before they start to become real problems, like powdery mildew or potential pest issues, aphids, whatever. That being said, if I'm traveling or if I'm out or if I just don't have the time, whatever, I will use drip. So my whole front yard is on a retrofitted sprinkler system that I've converted over to drip, and it's not automated in the sense of it clicks on and it clicks off, just because of the way it's set up, I can't really do that in my front yard, but it is a turn on, turn off. So I'll just set a little timer, turn it on in the morning and turn it off and I'm good to go. And I find that works really well for me.

Nicole: And what all do you have growing in your space?

Kevin: Right now, so we just switched over to fall. I think the fall, autumn equinox was like three days ago. So we have switched over in my front yard to mostly greens and root crops and all of the brassicas, like your cabbages, and your heading brassicas, like your cauliflowers and your broccolis. So I switched over to those. Doing a lot of Asian greens this year. A lot of interesting cabbages out of Kitazawa Seed Company, which is, they specialize in Asian greens. So I'm half Asian so I love cooking Asian stir fries and things like that. So growing a lot of pak chois, bok choys, many versions of cabbages that come to maturity quicker, like a 50 to a 60 day cabbage, which is kind of nice. I'm growing napa cabbage, growing daikon radishes, we're doing some rainbow carrots, different varieties of carrots. What else am I doing? I've got some fall flowers I think that are going in.

Kevin: Actually, you know what? I just repropagated zinnias and I'm seeing if I'll get anything out before the days get too short. So we'll see what happens there. I'm doing some classic cover cropping too. There's a bed that's kind of embedded into the ground in the front yard that was there with the property and it's up against the wall and doesn't get as much sun. And so edibles are a little trickier there. If I could grow anything, it'd be a leafy green, but I'm already growing so many, I don't need more. So I decided to throw a fall cover crop in there to do a little soil remediation and maybe bring in some pollinators and kind of beautify the space a little bit. So there's a bit of everything going on.

Nicole: And what would you say is your all time, this is going to be difficult, your all time favorite plant to grow, either inside or in your garden?

Kevin: Hmm, that's a really, yeah, that's hard. I mean, I don't think any gardener is able to choose just one. But-

Nicole: Maybe top five.

Kevin: ... for me, if we say 2019?

Nicole: Sure.

Kevin: I'll say the potato has been my favorite. The potato, to me, is a super undervalued vegetable to grow. It's super high in calories. It's very fun to grow. There's tons and tons of different beautiful varieties. There's tons of methods you can experiment with. And so potatoes for me just kind of took the cake.

Kevin: I grew three different varieties this year in five different methods and was just saying, hey, which varieties work? Which methods work? And I kind of, at least in my mind, disproved some of the conventional wisdom of growing potatoes that I think a lot of people hold sacred. So you know, for me, I tried out hilling them. I tried out not hilling them. I tried out five gallon buckets, grow bags, raised beds, and in the ground. And the thing that did the best was a set it and forget it, no hill, no fertilizer, barely watered, in the ground potato.

Nicole: Really?

Kevin: I mean, that just drastically outperformed, you know? And so even compared to the same method, but hilling it. And so to me I was like, why should I ever spend the time hilling a potato again if it's not going to give me any extra yield, you know?

Nicole: Sure. So if potatoes were your favorite for growing outside, do you have a favorite that you grew hydroponically, because that's something I'd like to learn some more about myself?

Kevin: Yeah, sure. So hydroponically, a lot of the things that I like to grow are just experimenting with different types of peppers, or tomatoes, or even just doing really massive bushes of basil, just because something like a basil plant, really any leafy green or any vegetative plant, you're going to get insane growth in hydroponics because, it's kind of like that movie WALL-E from Pixar where all the humans were at this future stage of humanity where you're getting delivered everything right to your face and you become very fat and very happy and very kind of lazy.

Kevin: That's kind of what's happening in hydroponics because the plant roots are being bathed in water that's oxygenated and has all the food and nutrients they need. They're getting blasted with light longer than the normal length of the day, right? So usually you'll run a light for 16 or even 18 hours a day, which at that level of light, that's just never going to happen naturally, right? So you get these crazy, crazy bushes of basil, or super fast lettuce growth, like maybe a 55 day lettuce becomes a 35 or a 40 day lettuce.

Nicole: Oh, wow.

Kevin: So it's really fun to grow things that way. And of course you can experiment out of the season and test things out perhaps even before you grow them in spring 2020, right? So I have a pepper coming in right now. It's a bell pepper, but it has variegation on it. So it's, you know, they'll turn green to red as they ripen? This one just never fully turns all the way and it has this striped red and green with a kind of bumpy look to it. And I want to see if that's going to be a good producer before it's actually summer again next year.

Kevin: So what I'll do is I'll probably grow that in a hydroponic system and document that and see the growth characteristics and then I'll say, "Hey, does this make sense to move into the actual soil garden next year or not?" You know? And so that's another way that you could use hydroponics. But for me it's kind of the more scientific or science-y nerdy way to garden. And I've always had a bend towards that. So it's just a super fun thing for me to experiment with.

Nicole: I remember seeing you talking about your bell pepper on Instagram. What does your hydroponic setup look like?

Kevin: Yeah, there's a lot of ways you can do it. The one that I prefer over all others, simply for the raw simplicity of it, is called deep water culture, which kind of sounds fancy, but it's really not. It's basically just you have a giant tote, and a lot of people will use like a Rubbermaid or Sterilite tote, something you could buy at Home Depot, 35 gallons or so. And what you'll do is you'll put water in that, and that water has to be at the correct pH range. So usually around like a 6.2 to a 6.4 pH is adequate. And remember that's kind of mimicking soil. Your plants' roots can only absorb and take in nutrients if they're in an area where the pH is in the right range. And so that's what you're trying to solve there. Then you just add nutrients.

Kevin: What I like to do is I add an airstone, like something you'd have at the bottom of an aquarium to oxygenate the water at the bottom. And then from there you put the top on, you drill a little hole or a circle in the top. You put this thing called a net pot, which is basically just a cup with some holes in it, and then you can plant your seed in there and let it germinate. Or you could transplant into it, either one, and you just start going. And so once the plant's roots reach that reservoir of oxygenated and nutrient rich water and you're giving them enough light from your grow light, it's really off to the races. I mean, you can experience absolutely insane growth and you just get to see results a little bit quicker. And it's a super fun process.

Nicole: So the net pot just has like dirt in it?

Kevin: Yeah, you, I mean, you can use a lot of different things. The most common thing people will use is they'll use a Rockwool cube to germinate. It's a natural product, but it's made out of spun rock that's been heated and kind of turned into a fiber. And you'll use that to start your seed, which is like this little one inch by one inch cube. You'll put that cube into the net pot and the net pot is filled with, usually expanded clay pellets, which are kind of like marble sized clay balls, and that's just to provide some structure for the roots until they make it into the nutrient reservoir. But you could use coconut coir, you could use soil, you could use peat moss. There's not a real benefit to using something like a soil because remember, all of the nutrients, or at least most of them are coming from that reservoir. So there's no real need to use soil at that point. It's not going to be providing your plants with anything different than just structure for the roots.

Nicole: And how do you then put nutrients in since it's, since you're putting them into the water, how do you know how much to put in, or what?

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, yeah that's a good question. So I like to use FoxFarm nutrients, but you could use any hydroponic nutrient you wanted. And what I like to do is they'll have a feeding schedule on the back and they'll give you recommendations for seedling level of growth, mild vegetative growth, vegetative growth, fruiting, flowering, all the way through a plant's life cycle. Because of course the nutrients a plant needs change throughout its life cycle. And what you'll do is you'll, every week probably, you're going to be monitoring that and oftentimes every week you'll change out that reservoir and give it a fresh set of nutrients. And then from there you're recalibrating the system, and that's how you keep track and make sure that nothing gets out of whack.

Nicole: So is this something that if you wanted to try it on a smaller scale, could you use like a five gallon bucket, or do you need to go larger?

Kevin: Oh, yeah, you totally could. You totally could. Yeah. I mean it's a fantastic way to do it. You could do a five gallon bucket with a, an airstone at the bottom, and that's basically your deep water culture system. The only issue with five gallon buckets, if you're growing a plant for a long time, is the root ball that's growing inside that bucket is going to start to really get really big and it'll start to drink up water like crazy. And so you might find that after two months of having this huge basil bush that you have to change the water so often it's better to just maybe propagate a new basil and start over again and harvest all that out, save it, make pesto, do whatever you want with it, and then restart, just because five gallons is kind of a small reservoir, but there's nothing saying you can't do it and people do it all the time.

Nicole: Well, that sounds like something for my winter to do list.

Kevin: Yeah, totally.

Nicole: So for those that want to get some more information on gardening and all of these different methods and the different plants, how can they go about finding your book or getting more information from you?

Kevin: Sure. Yeah, so the book actually is the only thing that is not called Epic Gardening in the world of Epic Gardening. So that's called Field Guide to Urban Gardening, which you can buy on Amazon. And then there is copies of it in my store on epicgardening.com. It's just shop.epicgardening.com, but I've got, everything else is just Epic Gardening. So if you're more of a reader then the website is just www.epicgardening.com. I think we're maybe at 500 in-depth plant care articles there. If you're more of a watcher then YouTube or Instagram is great, just in-depth gardening, tutorial type of content there. And then of course like yourself, a podcast, mine's a bit shorter. It's just a daily podcast and it's maybe five to 10 minutes or so. And of course that's just called Epic Gardening and you can listen to it wherever you can listen to any podcasts. So Spotify and Apple, iTunes, et cetera.

Nicole: And then of course my favorite way to follow you is Instagram.

Kevin: Yeah. Yeah. Instagram is, that's definitely the one I have the most fun with.

Nicole: Yeah, I really enjoy seeing all of your different videos and like I said in the beginning, it amazes me how much you come out with that you really have a great catalog of resources. So anybody that's interested in gardening or even house plants, I would definitely recommend checking out Epic Gardening.

Kevin: Thank you so much. Yeah, I try to put out as much as I can.

Nicole: Yeah, I'm impressed. I don't know how you do it. Well Kevin, I really appreciate you taking the time to kind of give us a little idea of small space gardening and the hydroponics, I thought that was really interesting, and I appreciate your time today.

Kevin: Yeah, of course. No problem. And thanks so much for having me on.

Nicole: Of course. And for those of you at home, thank you so much for listening to Backyard Bounty, and we'll see you again next week.

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